As soon as one allows works any role in salvation, they begin to walk done the road to universalism. If it is my deeds that can save me, how can I ignore the deeds of the Muslim or the works of the Hinduist which are far more pious than mine? How can those good people be excluded from eternity with God? How can their deeds be robbed on their apparent merit?
But when salvation is by grace alone and that grace earned through the act of one sacrifice alone, there is no such need to walk down the path. Either one has received the gift or they have not.   If they have received they are saved. If not, they are not.  Only perfect acts can save. And the scripture make clear that no one has any perfect works without Jesus. Therefore, all will perish who have not the grace earned by Jesus. Let us not speaks as if those without Jesus have a chance of salvation during this life or the next. To talk such a way rips away the glory due to Jesus alone.
Faith without works and works without faith will both alike be condemned, for he who has faith must offer to the Lord the faith which shows itself in actions. Our father Abraham would not have been counted righteous becuase of his faith had he not offered its fruti, his son (cf. James 2:21; Rom 4:3).–St. Diadachos of Photiki, “On Spiritual Knowledge”
This is the faith handed down and confirmed by the Holy Fathers. Lutherans appear so obsessed that any talk of our own efforts subtracts from the glory due to God. Thus, they accuse God of a double fault–that he does not know what he has created and that what he has created is flawed. Both suppositions are, of course, ridiculous and arrogant towards God. We do not ascribe glory to ourselves, but, following the comments of Martin Luther, “to God with his saints.” And that most certainly includes ourselves.
You ignore my point Chris. And at the same time you confirm it. You give works a role in salvation and in your previous comments said that God will make some “orthodox” in the life to come who knew not Jesus in this life. You have proven the path to universalism is paved in the doctrine of deeds. Thanks.
Wrong Phil. It is God who saves, not oneself. You are trying to argue that God is not playing by His own rules, via Sola Scriptura. Why are you pigeonholing God to suggest that He can only do what you think Him to do according to a book which is from Him of Him, but NOT Him?
I do not believe in universal salvation. God saves whom He chooses; that hardly means He saves everyone. Origen and St. Gregory of Nyssa held to universal salvation and that viewpoint was condemned at the Quinisext Council (678 A.D.).
ANd that does not suggest that God only saves those who do good deeds. Quit reading into what I have written Phil. You above all seem to forget that God is ineffable, His Glory ineffable, His mind ineffable and yet you claim to know it all.
THe Lutheran ethos of justification alone has really made Lutheranism into a faith of such passivity and lethargy, is it surprising that so many Lutherans stay home on Sundays or any other feast day?
I am not saying that you are a universalist, but you do allow for salvation outside of the grace won by Jesus Christ offered through the means of grace and received through faith. And if you can tell me with a straight face that this is what Jesus and the apostles taught, you have created a reality that did not exist. I doubt such a belief could have inspired their tireless dedication to spreading the gospel, and their humiliation even unto martyrdom.
You do not say that all will be saved. But you do say that all can be saved regardless of faith in Christ. To peer mystically into the mystery of God when he has revealed the clear answer to a question is dangerous and simply allows for one’s own interpretation of every issue even if covered over by a claim of adherence to some catholic principle that may have never existed in reality.
The doctrine of justification alone does not lead to lethargy. The misapplication of the doctrine to the Christian life does. And I agree this is rampant in our churches at times. However, the answer is not to replace the gospel with the law because it provides for an appearance of more piety. The Muslims are driven by the law to great acts of piety, and yet they shall all perish.
Phil, your lack of humility, especially as a shepherd entrusted with a flock is disturbing to me. I, of course, am no beacon for humility myself, but we must remember that Christ gave us the Church and the Sacraments for the salvation of all men. One’s attendance at liturgies, saying the prayers and partaking of the sacraments, even in good standing, does not automatically mean one is saved. Salvation is a mystery. We are called to be faithful, but Christ saves whom He wishes. At the same time, it is not arbitray, yet I DO NOT KNOW. And neither do you. Nevertheless, we have been called and He knows our name.
What will happen Phil when you are by the side of God and you see someone you knew in this life to be an atheist? Are you going to chide God because you served Him in faithfulness and this other person didn’t and you both were saved? Or are you simply going to say “Glory to God for ALL THINGS?”
This does not stop me from proclaiming God’s love for mankind and I will continue to do as you do. I’m not saying this as an excuse to not fulfill the commandment of Christ. I say it to make everyone realize that it is precisely in spite of us that salvation occurs and humility must govern above all.
If by encouraging my humility you are asking me to let go of the assurance of salvation I have in Christ Jesus, I cannot do so. It is my life.
And agreed that attendance at events does not automatically means on is saved, but the reception of the Grace of God in those places does. Our faithfulness does not assure it, but God’s faithfulness does.
Where do you get this idea that God saves who he wants? You say it ad naseum but yet I never see any logic or rationale behind it. Christ saves those who do not reject the forgiveness he won at the cross. That is the clear testimony of the apostles and the early church. Where in the Fathers do you find this salvation is mystery garbage?
And finally, I will not stand by an atheist in heaven. Of this I am quite certain.
Phil, you are confusing assurance for humility. You appeal to logic and reason, yet you have no scriptural basis? Come now. The Holy Fathers have no established checklist as to the requirements for salvation. We know so little about God and yet you claim to know how all will be judged? God is the lover of mankind and desires all to come to knowledge of the Truth. Whether that means in this life or in the next, I do not know. I am not going to fret about whether this person is saved or not, for I can do nothing in that regard. I can live the Christ like life and treat others as images (i.e. icons) of God, but their salvation is their own for God to mete out as He sees fit. Quit fighting me on this.
I will quit fighting with you. I am convinced you are wrong, and hope you correct your error in thinking. Your belief is not orthodox even if it is Orthodox.
Phil,
As I have said many, many times–Reading about Orthodoxy is not Orthodoxy. You have no idea what it means to be Orthodox. I have only but a small inkling. but this I do know. Humility in dealing with our fellow human beings and treating them as icons (images) of our God does not mean we should presuppose anything about their salvation. Why don’t you go out on some street corner sometime and start saying to every passer by whom you know is not Christian or Lutheran and tell them that they will be cast into Hades?
I do not know what it means to be “Orthodox” as in EO. I do know what it means to be orthodox, as in faithful. As far as the street corner, wrong method, not wrong message. Are you unfamiliar with the fact that Jesus, Paul etc all talked about those who would not enter the kingdom of God? You are allowing a false broad systematic (who knew, from an Orthodox person) idea to overrun the clear teaching of Jesus, the Apostles and the Scriptures.